Have you read an M/M book lately with diverse characters? How many books over the past year? 2, 5, 10 or none? Does it seem that there's not a whole lot of selection out there if you are a member of that rapidly expanding group called "diverse" if you want to read books with characters that look like you? In publishing parlance diverse means that you're not part of the mainstream. I'm not talking only about ethnically diverse protagonists, but culturally diverse, characters who are over 40, or those who are physically challenged.As you probably know by now from my polls, I tend to go where many fear to tread. The reason I do is because very few bloggers post on some sensitive topics that affect readers of M/M books, therefore I do so to even the playing field - you don't get answers unless you ask questions. One example was when I interviewed Clare London recently and I asked her a very touchy question - "Why don't you ever write interracial stories?" To give Clare a lot of credit she had the option to delete this or any question she didn't want to answer but she did respond and gave what were (to her) very valid reasons for her choices of protagonists in her books.
Prior to this interview, I summarized my thoughts about moving beyond racial and other boundaries on another poll on M/M romances conducted on the blog sometime ago. Here's part of what I said -
"There seem to be very few ethnically diverse main characters in M/M books. At least 90% of M/M books feature Caucasian characters as the protagonists. There are very few non-white ethnic main characters and those are mainly Latino where the plot involves drug cartels, and Asians in yaoi themed books, notwithstanding that there is a large multicultural population in the US and elsewhere in the world,

There is an untapped market of readers who do not feel that they are being served and that M/M books do not reflect their diversity. Writing positive culturally, ethnically diverse or physically challenged characters or older protagonists in M/M books would be a great way for authors to grow their readership - this is simply good business. If I can draw an analogy, if you eat the same diet every day or you can't relate to the food, it becomes boring and old very quickly and after a while you don't want it any more.
We live in a global society and economy and I think it's time for books to reflect this ethnic and multicultural diversity. Loose-id, recognizing this growing market, is one of the few publishers of M/M books that is actively promoting and asking for submissions that feature ethnically diverse characters (although they call them multi cultural.:) But there is still a huge lack of books featuring protagonists who are outside the "norm."
Noticeably absent in M/M books are protags who are physically challenged and characters that are over 40 -45 years old. A writer has to have a wonderful imagination if s/he is going to be successful, and I'm sure that s/he can come up with a few protags who are other than a 20 - 25 year old white male. Our society is changing rapidly and readers like to relate to characters who look like them in books. Of course I realize that historical books have their own challenges and that there are very few diverse characters to draw from in past centuries, but I'm sure there were physically challenged and culturally diverse people who lived in those times.
When I posed this question originally here are 2 of the responses I received -
As to ethnicity. Don't you think we get enough criticism for writing gay male fiction? Imagine the furore if all the white wimmin started writing black gay fiction! Seriously though, I couldn't do it. I know many gay men, but I've rarely met many ethnic minorities.
For the purposes of ethnicity, I have to agree ......... It's one thing to write fantastic creatures that have no real life counterpart. As long as you support your own world, you can be as fanciful as you want. But for creating characters that would reside in an everyday society, it's not enough to make it up as you go. For instance, I would never feel comfortable writing about Asian culture without studying it first, and I think anybody who does, does the culture a disservice. It wouldn't take much to learn, but to jump head first into writing a character without taking the time to learn what makes that character tick is irresponsible in my opinion. There is already enough outcry about minorities being presented poorly; the last thing we need to do is perpetuate it.

Of course I don't agree entirely with these opinions which, like some opinions are partly true, but in this case need perspective. These comments make ethnically or culturally diverse people seem as if they were another species altogether from strange new worlds. I think I'm fairly normal, but others might not.:) As a human race we're not that different from each other except for skin colour, hair, religion, age, or other physical characteristics.
While most M/M authors seem to be stuck in a rut as if they have found a winning formula and aren't willing to change in case they lose fans, I am pleased to say that, based on a very small survey, a few M/M authors have written books with ethnically diverse, physically challenged, older protagonists, or characters with different religious backgrounds than the Christian faith, and to the best of my knowledge their sales have not plummeted because they chose to take a walk on the wild side.:) Madeleine Urban & Rhianne Aile, Sean Michael, Lynn Lorenz, K.C. Kendricks, Jeanne Barrack, Ally Blue, James Buchanan, Z.A. Maxfield, Ariel Tachna to name some of them, have all written books with diverse characters. Het romances have significantly more interracial pairings and it seems that the authors who write primarily M/F romances are much more open to breaking down barriers and stereotypes and are more adventurous than their M/M counterparts. The only exception is in yaoi romances where the nature of this sub genre dictates that the protagonists must be Asian.

We live in a global society and books are the gateway to our new world. Authors have always been in the forefront of the changing human dynamics and shifting paradigms and they are now positioned where they can demonstrate that they recognize the world is not inhabited by only nubile young white males. The latest world population statistics indicate that we are almost at 6.8B people, with China at 1.3 B, India 1.1B, Africa 967 million, European Union 500M, USA 303M, Indonesia 230M, Brazil 190M, Pakistan 166M, Bangladesh 156M, Russia 142 M, Japan 127M and Mexico 111 M; Britain at 60M and Canada at 31M lag far behind. Clearly the population pendulum has shifted to countries that are ethnically and culturally diverse and people in the most populous countries in the world want to read about characters they can relate to.
As I said at the end of Clare London's interview, "we live in a global economy where people are more disparate than 10 or even 5 years ago -- whether it's their ethnicity, the fact that they are physically challenged, their sexual orientation, they are culturally diverse or are of a different religion -- and writers whose books embrace these differences perhaps have an opportunity to expand their readership. We all like to see ourselves reflected in books. The majority of M/M writers, being female, know nothing or very little about the lives of gay men, yet despite this they write terrific stories about gay protagonists. Similarly, they create wonderful paranormal worlds and characters and I'm sure they have never met a werewolf or a vampire.:) The world population is expanding exponentially at an unprecedented rate and every day I grow more and more excited at how far we've come, and the incredible opportunities that await those who choose to take advantage of our new global environment."

My blog is accessed by readers from all over the world if you can believe the Neocounter. To name a few - China, Singapore, Germany, Japan, France, Africa, Austria, Italy, India, Finland, the UK, US, Canada, Switzerland, South Korea, New Zealand, Australia, Georgia, Italy, The Netherlands, Belgium, Greece and on and on and on -- The more I read about the technological advances in countries like Asia where young adults live online and are actually reading and writing books on their cell phones, the more I'm enthused about our global society - what an expanding market for books! The number of M/M books with diverse protagonists is less than 5% (not counting yaoi), and one of the reasons I love books by the authors mentioned above is that they are willing to go there occasionally. Authors who see diversity as an opportunity to explore new worlds and move beyond stereotypes may find untold benefits in terms of an expanding fan base.
Next Wednesday I'm interviewing Jeanne Barrack who has written M/M books from a different cultural perspective and I hope you will log on to read what she has to say.
Are you hearing the music M/M authors?*g*
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66 comments:
I think diversity is a scary thing for a lot of authors in many different forms. Racially, physically, age...ly?, and other ways. I mean, almost all the m/m books I read have what some people euphemistically refer to as "straight-acting" gay men. They're not involved in gay culture or community, they don't fit the "stereotypes", they're not obsessed with dressing especially well or act outrageously... and I think some of that is because people have reacted strongly and in embarrassment toward these people. Which sucks, because you know what? I know gay guys like that. Now, I'd be just as angry if that were the ONLY portrayal of gay men out there. But I think it's just as wrong to ignore the more flamboyant men as it is to focus on them exclusively.
Is it because people find a formula and try to stick to it? Some of my publishers were talking about "the next big craze" in m/m genre and asking for stories specifically there. I am thinking that with the way public tastes go, by the time we get stories out that fit that craze, it will be a thing of the past. Do we attempt to know what the public will like and attempt to write that for them? I think we may underestimate the diverse tastes of the public.
I find I've left a lot to assumption with some of my characters about what race they are. There are a few that I never bother to describe them physically. (Usually these are very short stories.) Like Melissa Etheridge said about her own song writing (as she tends to write "I-you" songs instead of "she" songs), I want it to be possible for people to fill in the blanks the way that suits them best.
Sometimes that isn't possible, but it's nice to try.
And yes, I appreciate when someone adds a broader perspective into their fiction. Sometimes, for my part, I'm terrified of trying, but somehow I always seem to end up going there. Most of them are in my WIPs, but the one coming out through MLR later, I had fun playing with racial, ethnic, and religious diversity - of my own making. Putting it in a self-created fantasy setting made me more comfortable with tackling it. *grin*
Sorry, I think I rambled there without making much sense. I'll blame it on just having woken up.
I did read a couple of diverse stories in that wedding series (I can not for the life of me remember the proper title). A couple with black characters, at least one with a Jewish character , a couple with older guys in their 40's. I've probably read more with older men (37-45) than ethnically diverse. Barbara Sheridan and Anne Cain wrote I Do (which I was lucky enough to win a copy) and it was about two Asian men, one in his 40's. (Two birds with one stone there.)
I did read three (I think) stories that Sean Michael did with blind characters and just recently I read Blind Desire by I.D. Locke and while set in a fantasy world (lover is an incubus) it still dealt with his blindess. There are JL Langley's stories that involve native American's (Without Reservation, With Caution) and I've probably read a few others as well. Jet Mykles had a half-Japanese character in Tech Support. James Buchanan's Ceasar in The Good Theif is Hispanic and Hard Fall had a Mormon and a half/East Indian character. Oh and there was Jules M. Aedin's All the Things You Are which had a Japanese character.
So I think they are out there to some degree. Although I can't think of a story I read that involved Muslims. No, I lied, again one of the short stories in the wedding thingy had a Pakistani (I think) man who married to please his mother.
Perhaps it depends where the author lives? I live in a very ethnically diverse city or part of my city. Probably 40% of my daughter's class is Muslim, 25% Asian and a mix of everything else under the sun. But I know where I grew up the only black men I knew were the two Dr's in town, including my own and the only Chinese people owned the little local store. Muslim? Huh? And to be honest its still that way there. Except the Chinese people left.
I've lived here so long that I sometimes forget its not like this everywhere. There was an article on-line around prom time about schools in the US that are not segregated but have segregated proms, one for black kids and one for white kids. I was shocked. My first thought was "But which one do the Asian and Muslim kids go to?" Oh wait, there AREN'T any. So I suppose there may be authors who really aren't comfortable dealing with different ethnicities because I think there likley is a practice to write what you know to a degree. Yes, you can do research but its not quite the same as actually knowing someone Muslim or Jewish or who is deaf.
Setting is also a factor. A story set in NYC or Georgia or LA is more likely to have a black character than one set in Montanna or Alberta.
What am I saying? Ummm. No clue, but I have read a fair number of those stories and I've only been reading m/m for a year. I would be happy to read more but perhaps being white as the driven snow (seriously, I'm pale) I don't notice the lack of characters because I see (read) lots who look like me. It would likely be different if I was Asian and didn't see myself reflected in what I read.
Sorry so long, you know me, blah blah blah, can't shut up. But you asked. :-0
Hi Jules
It is a scary thing to move out of your comfort zone whether as a writer, moving to another community, changing jobs etc. But to me this is such a small step given today's society. I know authors feel that if they write stories with ethnic or disabled characters fans won't buy their books, but some of their fans are part of the group I'm talking about who want to see themselves depicted in books. There's nothing wrong with "writing what you know" but sometimes it's good to stretch yourself.
When I started this blog I didn't know what to expect and had this horrible, sinking feeling that I would do something incredibly wrong, but this idea turned out to be the best thing I had done for myself in recent memory.
Sometimes, for my part, I'm terrified of trying, but somehow I always seem to end up going there. Most of them are in my WIPs, but the one coming out through MLR later, I had fun playing with racial, ethnic, and religious diversity - of my own making. Putting it in a self-created fantasy setting made me more comfortable with tackling it. *grin*
We all have to start small and build on it if we want to be successful and I look forward to reading your new book when it is released.
Thanks for commenting.
Tam
What you pointed to is a very small percentage of the M/M books available today, based on the number that I have read over the past several years. Percentage wise these stories are just a blip and what I would like to see is an increase in the numbers, not just the occasional one-off.
Some writers such as Sean Michael (handicapped) and K.C. Kendricks (older) consistently write about protagonists who are outside the norm and I love them for it. To me it doesn't matter if it's an older character, a Jewish character, someone with a physical handicap or someone who is ethnically diverse, as long as we are offered something other than the same old, same old white bread. I love white bread but I don't want it for every meal. There's nothing wrong with nubile 20-25 year old white males as protags, just mix them up so that we're not fed a steady diet.
I didn't mention authors who write yaoi, because they write only about Asian charaters and this is a different sub genre. There is nothing wrong with yaoi, and as a matter of fact I have a mini poll on yaoi on the blog which ends tomorrow, and it will be interesting to hear what the fans have to say.
Maybe I should put together a list of diverse M/M stories on the blog to show the writers how much we, the readers, appreciate them.*g* Damn! More work.
A while ago they had a long discussion on DA, I think? about diversity in romances in general.
Being an old gal, I've been reading romance since before many of the readers and perhaps some of the authors have been on the face of the earth ;~D And I agreed about the lack.
I started with Barbara Cartland over 33 years ago when my dh and I had a children's book store in Minneapolis.
I remember the absolute thrill I had when I finally found romances with non Christian characters!
Catherine Cookson's "The Husband" was one I adored. I loved and love stories set in England, Scotland and Ireland so I wanted desperately to find diverse characters.
Rebecca Danton had a lovely book set during the Napoleonic era called "Star Sapphire" and this remains one of my all time favorite historical romances.
Here's the back cover blurb
Lovely Sonia Goldfine lived a quiet life with her Uncle Meyer, making beautiful jewelry for the ladies of high society. Because she was Jewish, however, she was not a member of that group.
Then, quite suddenly, the handsome and dashing Alastair Charlton, the Marquess of Fairley, asked for her hand in marriage. She accepted eagerly, not knowing it was her money he was after.
Then Sonia finally found out the truth about her marriage and she was shocked. So when she was asked to perform a service for her country, she readily agreed. Her wedding vows would wait. She'd worry about true love when she returned....if she returned.
This book was written with such love - and there were some - for those days in 1978 - a couple of very sensual scenes.
I read Bertrice Small's historicals because, for instance, in "The Kadin" and "Love Wild and Fair", she had strong characters who were Jewish and also because her books were very sexy.
So for me, finding Jewish characters portrayed in a positive and identifiable light, was my first search for diversity.
Maybe because I grew up and lived in NYC - Brooklyn - where there is such diversity, it was something I experienced early on. But I've always looked for variety in life and reading.
Right now, I've written about Jewish characters, Irish gods and goddesses, Irish Terrans, Italian counts, Spanish Americans, bi-racial characters and men in their late 30s and early 40s. Bisexual characters, lesbian characters and of course, gay characters.
I research, I talk to people, I read, I watch good films about the subjects, people I'm interested in.
I haven't yet written a story with Native Americans or Asian characters. The stories just haven't popped into my head yet. If they do, I won't say no. I'll fo what I've done in the past: research in every avenue I can.
I don't know why more writers don't take the plunge.
Come on in the water's fine!
And if you can't swim, there's always someone with a life jacket!
I've seen a lot of anger when writers write erotic stories including non-white characters because of the description of their skin being eroticised. Some people get annoyed when the skin is described in - for example - food similies. That's one reason I'd stay away from it, the other being that I don't know any non-whites right now. I've dated precisely one in my whole life, simply because I live in a part of England where they simply don't live.
However, I have written, and prefer to do so, older men than 20 year olds - as well as disabled characters.
It's more difficult for me, because I tend to write Historical English set stories so my characters WOULD be Christian, (or Atheistic at least perhaps) and if I were to "stick a black/chinese/asian character in" they would HAVE to be treated in the standards of the time. A black man in Regency England would be treated as a novelty, or would be a servant, people would say the most appalling things about him in the ton and while of course I don't agree with their opinions, I won't make my characters modern in head just to make others think I'm not racist.
I have done a disabled character, though in Hard and Fast, and my next book (after this WIP) will be set in Italy, so we will at least see some non-English people! And EVENTUALLY poor Fleury WILL get that sequel to the Americas in 1822, where he will meet a huge diversity of characters - and brother, that's probably part of the reason I haven't started it yet.
Going Anon for this. I have to admit, I find most stories featuring aboriginal people to be creepy and embarassing (including the above mentioned series). No effort is made to learn about the belief systems or cultures of the various communities/societies, and most of the time it seems like a character is aboriginal only because that is a fetish of white women. Yuck.
I also have found that issues of discrimination, racism, etc. are not adequately addressed. In the JL Langley book, the mother is presented as being prejudiced against the rich white boy, and no one can possibly understand why she would be so horrified at the idea of her child hooking up with a white guy- gee, maybe if many, many members of your family had been abused and raped by white people (and in my community, there is not one single family that has not dealt with the effects of this), you'd be nervous and upset too! But instead of fully considering this, instead of allowing the characters to deal with this issue sensitively, the author decided to paint the mother as crazy so that her characters can have an easy HEA. Because obviously any complaint an aboriginal person has about white culture or white people is unfounded and ridiculous.
I'm well aware that authors can choose to write whatever they wish, but sometimes I just want to scream "back off! leave my people and my culture alone! we DO NOT exist for your amusement or sexual fantasies!"
But maybe I am getting too upset over too minor an issue. Heaven knows if we can't get the government to take our complaints seriously, can we really expect members of the general population (which includes authors) to care?
Personally I want to read a good story so the ethnic origin is not important for me! My favorite main stream writer with several M/M books on his resumé is E. Lynn Harris! He writes some terrific stories about black gay men doing the down low, like they call it! So the last year I bought around 10 books with non caucasian characters! Some were good, some were not but that is a question of personal taste!
Good topic.... And don't forget where some authors use people of other races as the 'bad guy'. This I think is another reason, maybe minor, but a reason why racism is still going strong. For example if you just read that the black or latino guy was the baddie, and u walk down the street immediately, there is association of the bad character with the black or latino guy u see walking down the street. The same way if u read a cowboy story and u see a cowboy walking down the street u remember the story and the character... or watch a movie, or a tv show.
Also just using other cultures as supporting characters who never get their stories. We do want to read about people who look and live like us, it matters. Right now especially with the wars going on we have alot of vets coming back without limbs and with PTSD, that is something relevant and current that I personally would like to read about.
Suzi.
Jeanne
So for me, finding Jewish characters portrayed in a positive and identifiable light, was my first search for diversity.
Maybe because I grew up and lived in NYC - Brooklyn - where there is such diversity, it was something I experienced early on. But I've always looked for variety in life and reading.
Right now, I've written about Jewish characters, Irish gods and goddesses, Irish Terrans, Italian counts, Spanish Americans, bi-racial characters and men in their late 30s and early 40s. Bisexual characters, lesbian characters and of course, gay characters.
I research, I talk to people, I read, I watch good films about the subjects, people I'm interested in.
I think you're confirming some of the comments in my post. Research is important because the characters have to be portrayed sensitively and accurately, but to not attempt to write them at all is like pretending we don't exist.
Authors have critique groups which are made up of, I hope, a diverse (there's that word again)*g* and balanced collection of people who have different backgrounds. I think if these authors help each other by giving advice on characterization, based on their personal life experiences, some of the inherent problems of portraying someone in an insensitive manner would be eliminated or mitigated to a large degree.
Based on demographics I'm really surprised that writers are so hesitant about writing about diverse characters since I'm sure some of them must come from these very same groups.
Hi Anonymous
I have to admit, I find most stories featuring aboriginal people to be creepy and embarassing (including the above mentioned series). No effort is made to learn about the belief systems or cultures of the various communities/societies, and most of the time it seems like a character is aboriginal only because that is a fetish of white women. Yuck.
As a general comment, I can understand and share your frustration about the negative way that some aboriginal people and other races are portrayed in books and elsewhere. There is no excuse for this, especially now that so many research sources are available on the web to provide authentic and accurate information. Being black, I share some of your frustration when my race is ghettoized - and this is done by black authors as well as those of other ethnicities - that's how pervasive it is. I reviewed a book recently written by a black author that made me cringe. I won't mention the author's name but the review is on the blog
I was thinking of setting up a section on the blog which would list research sources as well as email addresses of readers who would be willing to beta read books for authors who write diverse protags, to bring some perspective and depth to the characters as well as correct inaccuracies in the way the characters are portrayed. The list would show the specialties (e.g. Hispanic, Black, Aboriginal, Physically Challenged etc.) and would only to supplement the authors' current research sources. Obviously a lot of work would have to go into this and maybe it's too ambitious a project right now with the move of this blog to a website in a few weeks, but perhaps in the future. If you would like to volunteer to either identify research sources or to beta read, please email me.
It's not easy to change people's perceptions, whether or not they are authors, but even small steps should be welcomed.
Honestly as long as not stated otherwise I will presume every person I come across in a book will be white. I live in a very white social circle. Only at work there are a few muslims but you won't notice a difference from me apart from them taking part in the Ramadan.
I have read a few books with divers characters but I do not actually search for them. I buy my books based on the blurb, excerpt and cover and if it happens to be different and I like what I see I will buy it.
Erastes
I've seen a lot of anger when writers write erotic stories including non-white characters because of the description of their skin being eroticised. Some people get annoyed when the skin is described in - for example - food similies. That's one reason I'd stay away from it, the other being that I don't know any non-whites right now. I've dated precisely one in my whole life, simply because I live in a part of England where they simply don't live.
You make a valid point that you prefer to know more about different ethnicities before attempting to write them as characters in your books. However, as I have said before, there are many Caucasian writers who have written wonderfully complex black and other ethnic characters. These writers do not live in New York or Toronto but in small towns in the Midwest US or Canada or elsewhere.
Perhaps because I have had a lot more exposure to people of other ethnicities I don't see this as a big problem. Writing positive ethnic or physically challenged characters is not that difficult if the author does the research. When you write a historical M/M romance, research is a significant part of the exercise I would assume. Similarly, when writing a diverse character, according to the authors that I have talked to who have done so successfully, it's all in how you approach it.
Here's what Madeleine Urban said in response to a question about how she created such positive black men in her books
I don't think it's any different writing a character with an ethnic background that is not Caucasian. It's a matter of character development. Just because a man doesn't have white skin doesn't mean I'm going to make him read like cardboard. That's just silly. Why should it be any more difficult to write a black man with gorgeous ebony skin or a slim, angular Korean, or a rough and tumble heavily tanned Hispanic? (And hey, those are cliches, but so is a WASP.) Hello: I am a woman.
Writing a man in the first place is pretty damn different and requires skill if it's going to be at all believable. If I can do the research to write a character who is clearly and believably and lovingly a man, then I can make him Indian, Japanese, African, or Brazilian. I love variety. I think readers do too. If you treat the character with respect and do your research so the descriptions are spot on, it will be fine.
I read Hard and Fast which I enjoyed very much and I know that you have written older characters than the 20 - 25 year old that we see most of the time.
I have done a disabled character, though in Hard and Fast, and my next book (after this WIP) will be set in Italy, so we will at least see some non-English people! And EVENTUALLY poor Fleury WILL get that sequel to the Americas in 1822, where he will meet a huge diversity of characters - and brother, that's probably part of the reason I haven't started it yet.
I'm looking forward to Fleury's story.*g*
Hi Wave,
Great topic. I've actually been thinking about this myself, which is one of the reasons the short story I'm writing has ethnically diverse protagonists. That said, I do find it more challenging than writing about characters who would share my own cultural experience. Now, challenge isn't necessarily a bad thing; we authors need it in order to grow, but I have to admit that I am nervous that I will miss an 'oh my God' (for example) that rolled off my fingers and a reader will catch it and call me on it because that particular character wouldn't have said that based on his culture. So I think maybe it isn't necessarily a formula thing, or an accidentally racist thing, but an oh-gosh-I-don't-want-to-offend-anybody thing. (I am laughing at how Canadian this whole paragraph is: I am aware of the lack of multicultural characters in M/M fiction, but I'm scared of writing it in case I'm accidentally culturally insensitive.)
I really, really love your idea of setting up some kind of resource for the cultural education of M/M authors (or authors in general, really). That's a lot of reallys. I know I for one would definitely apprecite it.
Mirko
We're saying the same thing about wanting to read a good story. In the case of those of us who may be a little different, we may want "something more" from time to time. That's all I'm saying.
When you go to a restaurant for a meal you ask for the menu and make a selection from what's available. In this case, it seems sometimes as if the choices are severely limited and I have to default to the standard cuisine, which may be very good, but not what I wanted that particular day.
It just struck me -- one of the reasons why, as much as I enjoyed "Friends", I never became a groupie. They lived in NYC, for gosh sakes, and yet you *never* saw a black man or woman or if you did, they were gone so quickly it made little or no impression. You only saw Chinese people and that was at restaurants. I think they had one story with a Korean character?
Now, I don't care if you don't have friends of other races, but,geezh, where the hell were all the other ethnic groups?
Did we ever see a Latino character?
Maybe...don't remember.
And this was one reason why I loved the old Law & Order show. NYC was a presence. The characters came in all shades and creeds and gender. They had good guy gays and bad guy gays; good blacks and bad, good Jews and bad.
The writers weren't afraid of dipping into the wonderful stew of NYC.
And that really stunned me about Seinfeld. I know it was supposed to be about nothing, but lordy, even nothing comes from something.
Okay, it seems that writers are aware of some of the caveats and so then, don't use them.
We have some phenomenal writers in gay/lesbian fiction, surely there are other ways to express skin tone. Or compare the character to some well-known actor or actress.
Sidney Poitier and Harry Belafonte are both men of color (and I wonder if that phrase is offensive!) but totally different looks.
"I first met Brad when I rammed him in the side with my umbrella on the crowded IRT line. He looked like he could be Sidney Poitier's son, but spoke with the thickest Brooklyn accent imaginable."
Okay, rough, but...
Suzi
....And don't forget where some authors use people of other races as the 'bad guy'. This I think is another reason, maybe minor, but a reason why racism is still going strong. For example if you just read that the black or latino guy was the baddie, and u walk down the street immediately, there is association of the bad character with the black or latino guy u see walking down the street.
You're quite correct that portrayal of a character in a book my leave lasting negative impressions, so it's really important to keep that in mind.
Also just using other cultures as supporting characters who never get their stories. We do want to read about people who look and live like us, it matters. Right now especially with the wars going on we have a lot of vets coming back without limbs and with PTSD, that is something relevant and current that I personally would like to read about.
Another valid point about disabled veterans. Some disabilities are not physical and I remember a story that T.A. Chase wrote a few months ago called Bound by Love where a secondary character suffered from PTSD - I hope that Keith gets his own story soon.
Ash
I do find it more challenging than writing about characters who would share my own cultural experience. Now, challenge isn't necessarily a bad thing; we authors need it in order to grow, but I have to admit that I am nervous that I will miss an 'oh my God' (for example) that rolled off my fingers and a reader will catch it and call me on it because that particular character wouldn't have said that based on his culture. So I think maybe it isn't necessarily a formula thing, or an accidentally racist thing,
Here's the thing, I may be black, but culturally I don't see myself as being different to you. I may like different types of music or food occasionally, although usually my meals consist of grilled chicken breast and salad or vegetables and I like country music; how boring is that? That's about it other than skin colour and a few minor imperfections.*g*
There are a few well written M/M books with ethnic or older or physically challenged characters and some of them accompany this post. It's simply a matter of writing the best protagonist you can, and the fact that this character may fall into one or other of the above categories is a bonus.
Jeanne
My family always commented on the fact that Friends had no ethnic characters except in the last season when one of the guys somehow had a black girlfriend. I think Seinfeld was the same.
We thought it was hilarious that NYC had no one other than lily white people. But what did we know? We were Canadians. You right about Law and Order which portrayed everyone equally - good, bad and indifferent.
In one of Madeleine Urban's books that she co-wrote with Rhianne Aile I think the term she used was "chocolate" to describe a black man which I thought was really hot.*g* There's cafe au lait and a host of wonderful colours that would offend no one.
I think a lot of diversity just doesn't get emphasized in story blurbs, and so readers don't notice how much is available.
For example, in my Renovations series with Anah Crow, Ven Parrish is biracial -- half African-American and half Asian-American, and Toby's children are both biracial -- half African-American and half Caucasian. None of that is emphasized in the story blurbs, though, because the fact that Ven isn't white isn't necessarily going to be what sells someone on the story.
In a novel we have coming out in the fall, Becoming Us, one of the lead characters is biracial -- African-American and Caucasian. It gets mentioned in the story because it plays a role in how he perceives a particular problem, but I doubt it'll be mentioned in the sales blurb.
Another upcoming novel, Parallax (in the Pandora Project series), includes several non-white characters -- and, in fact, it's the white character who comes across as unusual, because of the culture.
We've also written several stories about older characters, and characters with debilitating injuries.
We decided to take the risk. I try to be observant and honest in everything I write, drawing from my own experiences as a biracial person. We try to be aware of stereotypes, reader perceptions, and other potential pitfalls, as well as simply being aware of the world around us. It's important -- to me as a biracial person, to us as writers, and to us as human beings.
Wave -
You're right; we're not culturally different. Changing skin colour is as simple as find/replace, though of course the impact of that change on a person's experience of the world has to be considered as well; I'm not so naive as to think racism against any ethnic group is dead. I guess I was speaking more to my personal experience attempting to write characters who had, for the most part, grown up in foreign countries with very different customs and cultures.
Also, country music is awesome. I am going to see Brad Paisley in about four hours. ;)
Wave,
Great post as always! Sigh. So much to say, so little space. I dont want to end up writing a thesis on this but here goes nothing.
I think this particular issue is a two-edged sword bc on one hand a writer should have complete freedom to go where their imagination takes them. If they picture a white protagonist in their mind, knock yourself out and write it. There should be no boundaries. But in the same breath, individuals of different races, have physical disabilities, religions, and what have you are NOT some alien species. I hate to say this but when somebody who is not black for instance say they cant write black characters or any race for that matter bc its too "foreign", I think its a copout plain and simple. I just read a nice het romance where the couple was a black woman and an Asian man. I totally brought both characters. My theory is you dont have to do mountains and mountains of research. If you know how to create 3D characters and not rely on stereotype, your readers will buy it. I want to take a bit from what Erastes say how some people are offended by describing ethnic characters in association with food. The truth of the matter is i have read plenty of black writers who do the EXACT same things. Hell, Im an aspiring writer and I have done it! LOL..
Currently now Im trying to finish a mainstream short story where its about an interracial couple (black man/white man) Even as a black male, I didnt ran across any difficulty in writing the white male character. Where's the difficulty? Not rocket science. Truth be told, there is just as much cliches and stereotypes about white people as there are for any other race of people. I know for a fact that once I get over my fear and take the plunge into M/M that I will have stories where the couple is not even black. Im going to have stories where both men are black. Others will be interracial. Why not? Im going to go where my imagination takes me and what my characters dictate. But im not going to hide behind some flimsy excuse that is too foreign. I want to reflect what the world is about.
Hi Diane
I had no idea about your stories. It's only when I do posts like this that sometimes the authors mention their personal experiences or the way their characters are portrayed.
As I said in the post, I think authors should take a risk when they write stories. Not everyone is going to like everything you write but when I review a book and I see something different in a positive way I always comment in the review.
I guess I'll be checking out your books.:) Thank you for letting me know Dianne.
I actually hadn't thought about this much one way or the other but Loose Id does have a fair amount of cultural diversity in our stories...m/m or otherwise. And we'd like more. However we don't always list it as i/r or multicultural unless we see the difference as mattering in the story. So, for example, characters may be i/r or multicultural but if race or a different culture doesn't specifically add something to the plot or the characterization, we don't label the story i/r or multicultural for readers.
To add to Dianne's comment, I was just thinking about why I feel (as a white writer) I 'can' write characters of colour. I think part of it is that I've got a certain amount of 'cred' built up. Not that it stops me from screwing up or falling short, but it gives me the illusion that I've got some business stepping out. I think that 'cred' gives me the nerve to take my chances.
I'm writing in the romantic genre, specifically m/m and f/f and any combination of non-monogamous queer relationships. My 'cred' comes from being disabled (PTSD & neurological/pain disorders), kinky, academic, queer, genderqueer, formerly poor, used to work with children with disabilities, non-monogamous, and so on. I am a minority, which, I think, gives me a (however illusory) sense that I've already got some covered and I can reach a little further. Also, I'm actively studying topics such as anti-racist activism, Islam, hip-hop, feminism, critical theory, intersectionality, and so on. So, I do get pricked by my intellect enough that I'm constantly trying to wriggle out of my own status quo.
I want to write diverse characters because I feel an artistic and ethical obligation to do so. Basically, I try to make diversity my default. I want to do a good job, too. No guarantees, but I intend to keep trying. Sometimes I fail and sometimes, I admit, I go back to familiar ground because I have too much to juggle and I'm over my head.
Reading books by people of colour or by people with disabilities is also a part of my work toward diversity. I can't recommend that option enough to people who would like to expand but are anxious about doing so. If you're uncertain about the writing: READ. It's a great place to start. By reading (and reviewing), you also help to create demand, which is another step in the right direction.
Ozakie
I think this particular issue is a two-edged sword bc on one hand a writer should have complete freedom to go where their imagination takes them. If they picture a white protagonist in their mind, knock yourself out and write it. There should be no boundaries. But in the same breath, individuals of different races, have physical disabilities, religions, and what have you are NOT some alien species. I hate to say this but when somebody who is not black for instance say they cant write black characters or any race for that matter bc its too "foreign", I think its a copout plain and simple.
That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. I can't understand why some writers regard writing an ethnic, culturally different, older or physically challenged character as if that character were a different species. Just write a great character and give him a few differences that are well researched, so that he is well drawn and three dimensional. I don't think that's too much to ask.
Ingrid
Honestly as long as not stated otherwise I will presume every person I come across in a book will be white. I live in a very white social circle.
I think that those readers who live in countries where there is a diverse population base, such as North America or many of the countries that I mentioned, they expect to see themselves represented in books - not just M/M books.
Imagine if the tables were turned and you could not find a book with characters that you could relate to, and every story was populated by the groups I mentioned. I think you would notice very quickly and try to change the situation. I would just like the playing field to be a bit more level.
This is not just a case of white authors writing white characters - authors who are of different ethnicities and cultural backgrounds do the same.
I have absolutely no idea how that must be or how it would feel like Wave.
"So for me, finding Jewish characters portrayed in a positive and identifiable light, was my first search for diversity."
"....And don't forget where some authors use people of other races as the 'bad guy'. This I think is another reason, maybe minor, but a reason why racism is still going strong. For example if you just read that the black or latino guy was the baddie, and u walk down the street immediately, there is association of the bad character with the black or latino guy u see walking down the street."
Wave's was a great post as always, but these two excerpts from comments reminded me that I should probably count myself esceedingly lucky that my own fellow countrymen haven't so far featured in many m/m stories, and not in any I have read. Because German in English/American books/movies automatically means a Licence To Be Bad. And blond, of course. Note: natural blonds are a minority in Germany.
So here’s a challenge for (m/m) writers: how about interesting, multilayered German characters? Good ones or bad ones (though a good guy would make a nice change), but most importantly real characters. Not just blond squarenecked Nazi-type cardboard cutouts.
I write the characters the color or religion they need to be. I do what I need to do to tell the story I'm telling.
My last novel had a Cherokee hero and his folks give him trouble about his white boyfriend.
The one coming in October is a gay pagan inspirational romance about a PTSD Iraq vet in love with a legless phone psychic.
I've done black, Native American, Middle Eastern (Greek, Israeli, Egyptian), Indian and Japanese characters. They range in age from 22 up to their 60s. (the SF universe 80 year olds look 35, so I'm not counting them)
I have vocal atheists, observant Jews, indifferent Muslims, dedicated pagans, fanatical evangelicals and lesbian Episcopalians.
Yes, the majority are still white, middle-class, white collar and 20-30s. Because that is my default idea of "man." It's what I grew up seeing, what my father and stepfather were and what my husband is.
It's work to step outside that paradigm. But when the story demands that work, it's worth it.
Treva
I actually hadn't thought about this much one way or the other but Loose Id does have a fair amount of cultural diversity in our stories...m/m or otherwise. And we'd like more. However we don't always list it as i/r or multicultural unless we see the difference as mattering in the story.
I did mention in the post that you were one of the few publishers constantly requesting diverse stories in your submission calls, and I applaud you for this.
You might want to think of this from the perspective of the readers who want to read these stories. Unless there is some indication either from the cover or the blurb about the content there is no way to know what's inside the cover. I think there is a hunger for these types of stories and not only from diverse readers, because they are not really mainstream. Het authors are doing a much better job writing diverse stories than their counterparts in M/M.
So, for example, characters may be i/r or multicultural but if race or a different culture doesn't specifically add something to the plot or the characterization, we don't label the story i/r or multicultural for readers.
If I may make a suggestion, perhaps at some future date you may wish to re-examine this policy so that readers who are looking for these types of books can find them a lot easier.
Thanks for commenting Treva. I always value your input to my little posts.:)
*oh, wave... i fall in love with you all over again!
*don't forget james buchanan - it's one of the many reasons i love her books.
*as a woc i often feel picky and have held myself back in my lpublic commentary/book reviews. for instance: an IR book reviewed here in the last week had white hands on the cover (wtf?) even tho the protags were white and black. and another story months ago was laden with tropes about black women and our supposed 'attitude' - but the reviewer did not name them so even tho she found the misrepresentations disturbing and irritating foils for the white protags.
* as well, i think if an author feels they must "do research" maybe it means their life needs more diversity in a variety of ways. or at least a trusted confidante with whom to conduct a "trope check"
* and by the way - white people are as foreign to me as any other group i get to observe from the margins - but i trust the people in my life to keep my bulls*t in check! :0)
-kkm
*and wave - thanks for putting yourself out there - one of the ugly beauties of the internet is that race becomes or feels like a chimera - authors, readers and writers can be anything. while racism, sexual fetishism, tropes and excessive caramel-skinness or black dick desirability are very very real!
* and i think that racism is very different from (sexual) raceplay...
:0)
-kkm
"I actually hadn't thought about this much one way or the other but Loose Id does have a fair amount of cultural diversity in our stories...m/m or otherwise. And we'd like more. However we don't always list it as i/r or multicultural unless we see the difference as mattering in the story."
Like Wave said, maybe u should indicate if they are, I for one would buy the books if I could tell somehow that they're IR.
Apparently there are alot of books that are diverse but we never know unless someone does a review and tells us.
Suzi.
For the sake of argument -- is it diversity when the story is about two people who are in the same social sphere, have a similar income level, and don't think about skin color but one happens to be black, white, Asian, Hispanic, whatever and the other isn't?
^Mrs. Harte (I read the Post article on you by the way. Really good) I think it is diversity. I know for a fact that my best friend who is black mostly date white guys. In his relationships, skin color issue doesnt come up. They deal with the exact same things any other couple have deal with.
This is a very interesting topic, Wave, and I'm glad you brought it up for discussion. I've been thinking about this a lot lately in my own work.
As far as main characters' race, I've had one black man, one half-black/half-faery (there's a combo you don't see every day! LOL), one half-Creole/half-Creek, one I'm-not-sure-but-probably-Cajun, one at least part Cajun, one half-Columbian/half-white, one half-Arab/half-Italian, and, er, I think maybe that's it. I seem to go for inter-culteral marriages O_O Honestly, I'm not sure why more characters of different races don't make it into my books. It's not something I consciously think of. The characters just sort of happen. (Which might explain it; I guess if you don't think about it, people tend to BE like you, huh?) Though I have to say, I AM sort of afraid to write characters from other countries, because I'm always afraid I will get the details wrong; you know, the sort of thing only a person who lives there would possibly know. Same reason I'm always afraid to set a book in another country. I seriously need to work on that.
Age: Bo from BCPI was in his 40s when he and Sam met. Sam was in his mid-30s. I've written other protags in their mid-to-late 30s but I'd like to write more in their 40s, honestly.
Religion: this is my biggest rut. ALL of my guys are atheists. There are all sorts of personal reasons for that and I will not bore everyone with my ranting here. Bottom line, I need to mix it up and write guys with more diverse religious beliefs.
What I'd really like to try my hand at is writing a paraplegic character. I'm a neuro nurse from way back; this IS what I know. The thing is, spinal cord injury has a very real affect on sexual functioning. Not sexuality; a person with a cord injury can have just as healthy a sex drive as an uninjured person. But it does affect how that person is able to have sex. So, I have to be brutally honest with myself, and realize that either the book would have to contain no explicit sex scenes, or the audience for it would have to be a very special one, and not your typical romance audience. So I have some thinking to do about that one: how to write it, and where to put it. Probably MLR, I'm thinking. I think they are the only publisher edgy enough to publish such a thing. I'd like to be wrong, about the readership I mean; I'd like to find out that EVERYONE out there would love to read a loving, sensual sex scene between a paraplegic man and his partner. Sadly, I just don't have that much faith in humanity :-/ There would definitely be an audience, yes; I just don't think it would reach the masses, and I think that's sad.
Okay, enough rambling from me :) Again, thank you for bringing this up! I think it is a discussion that needs to be had, and something we as authors all need to think about.
Hi Treva
In my book and those of other people of colour (whether they are yellow, brown or black) it is "diversity" if one partner happens to be white and the other partner is another colour, regardless whether they are socially or economically at the same level. Also, you could have diversity if one character is Asian and the other is black. Similarly, if one partner is Jewish and the other is not, then there is cultural diversity.
I was also talking about different types of diversity in the post - older characters, physically challenged protagonists etc. In this case the diversity has to do with the fact that these character types are different from the 20 - 25 year old white male who is the typical protagonist in 90% of M/M books (except yaoi).
Hi kkm
Thanks for commenting and reminding me about James Buchanan who is one of the authors that writes great diverse characters. Of course I could only mention a few writers in the post or it would have been too long.
and wave - thanks for putting yourself out there - one of the ugly beauties of the internet is that race becomes or feels like a chimera - authors, readers and writers can be anything. while racism, sexual fetishism, tropes and excessive caramel-skinness or black dick desirability are very very real!
I have said on many occasions that I am black and very proud of my race. (Please note that I didn't say African Canadian, but black - however that's the subject of another post) *g*
I know the book cover you mentioned but that cover was for a series and the I/R story was only one of many.
I seem to remember recently reading review on this blog of a book written by an Australian author, set in Australia. It was criticized because the characters did things the Australian way, for example underage drinking (according to US standards, not Aus). Where was your cultural diversity then?
Anah
To add to Dianne's comment, I was just thinking about why I feel (as a white writer) I 'can' write characters of colour. I think part of it is that I've got a certain amount of 'cred' built up. Not that it stops me from screwing up or falling short, but it gives me the illusion that I've got some business stepping out. I think that 'cred' gives me the nerve to take my chances.
This is exactly my point. At least you are telling the stories and if you screw up a couple of times I'm sure it would not be deliberate like some of the stories I have read. The funny thing is that authors have beta readers or critique groups or someone to bounce these stories off, even their editors, so I don't understand their hesitation to take their writing up a notch.
I want to write diverse characters because I feel an artistic and ethical obligation to do so. Basically, I try to make diversity my default. I want to do a good job, too. No guarantees, but I intend to keep trying. Sometimes I fail and sometimes, I admit, I go back to familiar ground because I have too much to juggle and I'm over my head.
I admire writers like you who keep trying, pick themselves up and dust themselves off if they make a mistake, and they just go on and do the best job they can. That to me says a lot. Thanks Anah.
Treva
I should mention that even when an I/R couple has a similar social and economic background, that does not eliminate cultural problems within the relationship. Some couples could have difficulty with race even though they are alike in every other way. There may also be issues around family members who oppose the relationship on ethnic or religious grounds.
treva - i agree totally about your comment. what heartens me as a reader and educator is the idea that diversity can (and does) exist in a monochromatic, monotheisitic or monocultural setting. it just takes a skilled and thoughtful author to do it! :0)
and i'd buy that book and rec it to my friends! :0)
i often also mention that because of my education(s) i have a lot more in common with middle class whites than i do with not middle class african-americans (and i understand your distinction, wave) ...
:0)
-kkm
Angelia
My last novel had a Cherokee hero and his folks give him trouble about his white boyfriend.
You're writing stories with characters who are diverse ad that's what we need a lot more of.
Yes, the majority are still white, middle-class, white collar and 20-30s. Because that is my default idea of "man." It's what I grew up seeing, what my father and stepfather were and what my husband is.
It's work to step outside that paradigm. But when the story demands that work, it's worth it.
There's nothing wrong with writing protagonists that are more familiar to you and from time to time take a walk on the wild side by writing a Cherokee, Jewish, Middle Eastern, Black or other racially diverse character. I think that's bloody marvellous!
Oops, that anonymous comment about the Australian author was me, Rikki, and may have come across a little nasty. I'm sorry, but I remember feeling very pissed off when I read that review. Not that I didn't agree with the overall rating given at the end, just that some of the comments, for me showed,a lack of trying to understand other cultures.
Diversity would have to combat a lot of racism and other mindsets to become in any way (ie. economically) viable.
Rikki
Ally
I just updated my post to add you and James Buchanan to my list of writers who consistently give readers diverse characters.
Religion: this is my biggest rut. ALL of my guys are atheists. There are all sorts of personal reasons for that and I will not bore everyone with my ranting here. Bottom line, I need to mix it up and write guys with more diverse religious beliefs.
All of your guys are atheists?*g* I'm not a religious person so I never thought of the religious background of your characters.:)
What I'd really like to try my hand at is writing a paraplegic character.
I would read the story Ally and I'm sure that many other readers would as well. I think I read an M/M story about a paraplegic character some time ago and it's going to bug the hell out of me to try and remember the name of the damn book. I can 't even remember of the injury was permanent or temporary but if I do find it I'll tell you who wrote it.
Thank you for commenting Ally. I really appreciate it.
OK. I didn't express myself well. If we don't get a look at a different-from-mainstream culture or there is no conflict derived from the characters being diverse, then we don't characterize it as multicultural or i/r even if the characters come from a different ethnic group, have different colors, etc.
All of your guys are atheists?*g* I'm not a religious person so I never thought of the religious background of your characters.:)
Yeah, I don't think it's always specifically mentioned, but in my head they're all atheists *g* Come to think of it, I don't think I've always specifically mentioned my guys' races either. Hmm...
I think I read an M/M story about a paraplegic character some time ago and it's going to bug the hell out of me to try and remember the name of the damn book. I can 't even remember of the injury was permanent or temporary but if I do find it I'll tell you who wrote it.
Thanks, I'd appreciate that :D
Treva
So these stories would be categorized the same way as stories with two white or two black or two Hispanic protagonists? I would assume then that the conflicts in the stories would be from external sources unrelated to the characters' ethnicity?
If these I/R romances are in the Loose Id database and readers want to buy them because they identify with the characters' race (or religion or whatever), how would they do this if there is no search criteria? Unless they know either the names of the books or the authors' names, they will be unable to purchase these books.
I'm looking at this strictly from a purchasing point of view. If the customer can't find a particular commodity online through search criteria then they can't buy it.
Rikki
I seem to remember the review but not the book. Could you email me? We have an Australian guest reviewer on the blog (Kris) and normally she gets the Aussie books to review and I'm positive she would not have made such comments about the book.
I didn't mention authors who write yaoi, because they write only about Asian charaters and this is a different sub genre.
But it's not really different. If a book has a strong Yaoi vibe or a more "real world" feel, the authors still have to "get it right" in terms of portraying the culture and characters' beliefs as accurately as possible.
A great topic, Wave, which has also generated some very interesting comments.
I buy books that appeal to me; whether they be for the genre, the plot or the characters, including those who may come from different countries, races or backgrounds. If a story happens to have ethnically or culturally diverse characters in it, I have an expectation that this diversity - as long as it is relevant to the story - is dealt with in a 'real' way. I wonder - and I'm not making excuses but asking a question - if this (readers' expectations) may be one of the reasons why such themes 'scare' some authors from even testing the waters?
This issue also strikes me as being more than a little ironic insomuch that the same authors who have stepped out of their comfort zone to write m/m romance are struggling or hesitating with taking on the themes of ethnicity, physical impairment and/or age. To those authors, I would say haven't you already proven to yourself with the challenge of writing m/m?
Umm, besides sucking at grammar, I obviously make a bad cheerleader. *sigh*
What I was - not very successfully - trying to say was that many authors have already pushed the envelope in terms of writing m/m romance. I would therefore hope and think this fact might give some writers the added confidence they need to approach other new and challenging themes such as those discussed here.
Hi Barb
But it's not really different. If a book has a strong Yaoi vibe or a more "real world" feel, the authors still have to "get it right" in terms of portraying the culture and characters' beliefs as accurately as possible
I didn't want to deal with yaoi as part of this poll since I was going to do so separately. I have a mini poll running on this topic on the blog which hasn't closed and I wanted to present the readers' comments on this sub genre. Yaoi is very important and I thought it deserved its own poll.
I know the importance of getting the "culture" right. Being a minority I'm aware that it is extremely difficult to get other cultures right, including Asian, which I love.
Kris
What I was - not very successfully - trying to say was that many authors have already pushed the envelope in terms of writing m/m romance. I would therefore hope and think this fact might give some writers the added confidence they need to approach other new and challenging themes such as those discussed here.
Exactly the point I'm trying to make. The authors have already made the leap into M/M. The majority of M/M writers are not gay or even men, yet they write books about gay men, and most of them have done a credible job (readers like my pesky friend Batboy may disagree.)*g* Yet they don't seem willing to move the yardstick and tackle other "minorities" within that sub genre.
As you know Kris, I read all kinds of books, including a lot of M/M, and I would just like the authors to open their minds and realize that the world is only limited by their imagination. Readers will come along for the ride if they do a good job which will be so much more gratifying if they can move the yardstick.
Treva wrote:
"OK. I didn't express myself well.
If we don't get a look at a different-from-mainstream culture or there is no conflict derived from the characters being diverse, then we don't characterize it as multicultural or i/r even if the characters come from a different ethnic group, have different colors, etc."
My server was down for most of the afternoon, so I didn't get a chance to get back for one last response
The only problem I had with my blurb/description from LI was that they didn't introduce it nor indicate elsewhere that the story of The Sweet Flag was both MC/IR
This was a vital subtext of the story and throughout the book, especially regarding the main love story between deMonde and Matthew, this was a major component of where the story went.
Even the paranormal element was limned by religious parameters.
I had thought that I had mande this clear through all my interactions with LI.
I double checked and I think it's great that LI has a separate grouping for MC.
And please, just because it is separate it is not inspired by any "Separate but equal" sociological thing
It's to make it easier for people to find books in the genres they enjoy the most.
Would you expect to see a Horror story mixed in with an inspirational story when you look for an Inspirational one?
I think that by also presenting books in more than one genre - if it fits - you introduce readers to new authors.
Thanks again for broaching this topic, Wave
Hi Jeanne
If there's one thing I hope comes out of this it's that publishers, especially LI which is actively promoting "diverse" submissions, do a good job on the back end when the stories are released. There is nothing so frustrating for a reader as looking for a particular theme or book on a publisher's bookshelf and not finding it. This does a disservice to the authors as well as the customers.
Many authors have told me that when they write a book with diverse characters LI does not promote it as such, and based on Treva's comments I can understand LI's position, but also see why the authors feel that there should be another look at this policy. However, I'm sure other publishers may have a similar policy - I will have to do some research to confirm this. Treva and LI have always been most supportive of their authors and I'm sure if this is just a coding thing they may make changes that they feel are appropriate, but only if those changes fit within their overall marketing strategy.
This discussion has left me very confused.
On the one hand, I'm getting the message that writers should portray IR or MC (or older or disabled) characters no differently from how they portray young, fit, WASPish protagonists. Then what, exactly, is the point of having IR or MC (or older or disabled) characters if they're essentially no different from the white-bread norm?
On the other hand, if writers do attempt to add distinguishing characteristics or unique struggles, and they "get it wrong" (obviously, many readers are going to see it that way, since people take umbrage mighty easily), those writers are going to be slammed for their ignorance, provincialism, lack of research, subconscious prejudice...whatever.
I've seen it happen when Latino/Latina characters, for example, speak in the wrong national or even regional dialect. I've seen it happen when black characters are described in certain ways (e.g., "Don't compare my skin color to food!") I've read plenty of outcries about other things, as well.
No book pimpage is forthcoming. As I said, I'm just expressing my befuddlement.
Hi KZ
Good morning and thanks for commenting.
The point of my post was to say a few things:
First, those readers who do not fit within the demographic to which most M/M books are targeted, feel largely ignored because they don't see characters like themselves in these books.
Second, the point of having these characters in M/M books is so that these "diverse"readers (who make up most of the world population) feel included as part of the "target" group and are not treated as they were invisible. In other words, right now they feel that their money is OK but they are not.
On the one hand, I'm getting the message that writers should portray IR or MC (or older or disabled) characters no differently from how they portray young, fit, WASPish protagonists. Then what, exactly, is the point of having IR or MC (or older or disabled) characters if they're essentially no different from the white-bread norm?
Third, as a member of the "diverse" group I think I I'm pretty ordinary other than my colour (I'm intelligent, not biased or a bigot - at least I don't think so since I love my family and friends who are made of up many of the world's races and religions, I don't speak as if I'm from the ghetto, and I act pretty normally in polite society *g*) but I would still like to read about people who are "different from the white bread norm"
Imagine a world where you could not find books that reflected you? (I'm talking here about all books, not just M/M) You would ask the question "what the f...? Am I not a member of this society?" That's how I and many other readers feel.
On the other hand, if writers do attempt to add distinguishing characteristics or unique struggles, and they "get it wrong" (obviously, many readers are going to see it that way, since people take umbrage mighty easily), those writers are going to be slammed for their ignorance, provincialism, lack of research, subconscious prejudice...whatever.
Isn't this what beta readers and critique groups are for? To point out obvious cultural, racial and other caricatures and stereotypes? Many authors who write books about physically challenged characters seek out people in the medical field to ask for advice to make sure they get it right, and they also do the necessary research BEFORE submitting their book to the publisher. Authors have asked my advice about certain racial stereotypes and I am happy to give them my perspective - I'm no expert but I think I know when a character is a stereotype. I read a book recently about an interracial couple where the black character was such a stereotype of how they were portrayed 25 years ago I cringed... and this book was written by a black man!!
I think any writer who wants to do a good portrayal of someone who does not fit the "white bread" characterization can do so if they really want to. Women write excellent gay male protags yet they are not men nor are they gay. What's wrong with the picture, as I see it, is that some writers do not care enough to be inclusive or can't be bothered. They have to research topics for every book they write, why is this any different? You do research for your world building for different stories - this is the same research, only on a different topic.
The point really of having characters who are different is that there are different people who read your books - physically challenged, older, culturally and racially different and it would be a tip of the hat to them if occasionally they see themselves in these books.
KZ
Part II (Blogger wouldn't allow me to post all of my comments)